The PGA and LIV debacle

[Dannydet]

What's everyone's opinion on this?
Personally, I'm kinda on the fence on this one.
Anxious to hear anyone's comments....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIV_Golf
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGA_Tour

 

[Hadron]

Well I don't follow any sport at all closely, so as an outsider my impression is:
* The PGA are used to calling all of the shots and want to defend their position.
* LIV looks a lot like a sportswashing operation by a literally murderous state.
Although I know nothing about the PGA I'm generally a bit wary of international sporting bodies because some of the biggest ones have a fair old record of corruption, and I anyway don't see that they have a divine right to rule their roost. But as LIV is linked to the Saudi state that bombs Yemeni kids and murders its critics, then frankly I'd want nothing whatsoever to do with that and have to hope that it ends up an expensive failure (and I gather that they are paying the players enough that it won't matter too much to them if it doesn't last long).

 

[Milo Williamson]

Well I don't follow any sport at all closely, so as an outsider my impression is:
* The PGA are used to calling all of the shots and want to defend their position.
* LIV looks a lot like a sportswashing operation by a literally murderous state.
Although I know nothing about the PGA I'm generally a bit wary of international sporting bodies because some of the biggest ones have a fair old record of corruption, and I anyway don't see that they have a divine right to rule their roost. But as LIV is linked to the Saudi state that bombs Yemeni kids and murders its critics, then frankly I'd want nothing whatsoever to do with that and have to hope that it ends up an expensive failure (and I gather that they are paying the players enough that it won't matter too much to them if it doesn't last long).

I am with you on this one Hadron, I do not follow sports at all and my auto thinking was LIV was linked over to the Saudi's too.

 

[mikedt]

Is this about golf?

I'd heard of PGA before, but not LIV.

 

[Bearsyzf]

But when they're offering all these Golfers big money, you know they're going to take it...... i look at it as a XFL League that will most likely not make it.

 

[Dannydet]

@mikedt, I added a wiki link to my post...

 

[cwcheese]

This situation is reminiscent of an acrimonious divide about 4 decades ago in the Indy car racing league, when the owners of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway were also the primary leaders of the open wheel racing sport via USAC [United States Auto Club], they set the rules for the many races and the standings, and how champions were crowned. By the 70s there were some new team owners who became successful race teams and several were led by Roger Penske to break away to form CART [Championship Auto Racing Teams] to wrest control over races, tracks and cars. The two leagues dueled for races and drivers for a couple years, until finally they came to a sort of peaceable coexistence. The Indianapolis and USAC folks eventually formed Indy Racing League and ceded control of the famous racetrack to IRL, and IRL has in recent years absorbed the remains of the CART league that went bankrupt in the early 2000s.
At any rate, I see this PGA vs LIV as a replay of that, except it's in pro golf, and it is a matter of who holds the power & makes the rules & pays the prizes. I'd surmise they'll compete in parallel for a few seasons and eventually come back together with a new rules set and greatly expanded prize purses.

 

[olbriar]

LIV golf is the new kid on the block. They are paying players big money.. BIG MONEY to play in their league. It is a Saudi based organization that has deep pockets. I think competition to the long standing PGA can't be all bad. The PGA's initial answer was to increase the purse for most all of their tourneys and some compensation for player rights to their media coverage. I think that likely would not have happened without the competition. However, I personally view the LIV as a threat to golf tradition and I'm not in their camp at all for their seemingly endless revenue to wreak havoc in a long standing sport. They have the money to buy MLB, NFL, or the NBA but I can't imagine that would be a good thing for sports or athletes.

Golf has always been a sport where reward has been achieving and being compensated for such. Different from most professional sports where athletes are paid to play. Maybe a change is due. Golf as we know it has been around for 150 some years. It might be a bit late in the day to make such a drastic structure change to the sport.

The more I learn about the PGA the more I realize they have governed the course the game has taken for many years. Perhaps it is time for less dominance. Change is not always a bad thing. Just the threat of change has improved positions of the PGA players. I just wish it wasn't being forced by a questionable source with questionable motives.

 

[Deleted member 2157292]

Wikipedia on (Greg) :

"Later, in May 2022, Norman defended the involvement of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman with Jamal Khashoggi’s murder, stating, “Look, we've all made mistakes, and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward.” His statement drew extensive criticism. Khashoggi’s fiancée, Hatice Cengiz, said it was hurtful that “Jamal's brutal killing is brushed off as a 'mistake' and that we should just move on”.

Like.... WOW!

 

[mikedt]

@mikedt, I added a wiki link to my post...

I'm not into golf, and the only PGA I really knew was the PC DOS game I played years ago.

...in glorious 16 colour EGA mode.

 

[Dannydet]

Mike, that's awesome!!!
Old school but awesome.

 

[olbriar]

I'm not into golf, and the only PGA I really knew was the PC DOS game I played years ago.
View attachment 163378
...in glorious 16 colour EGA mode.

Only after you added EGA.SYS to your CONFIG.SYS file.

 

[mikedt]

I could enjoy my PGA in CGA, black, white, turquoise, and pink.

 

[mikedt]

While I'm on the subject, one of the very first computer games I ever played was golf, on a teleprinter, circa 1979. As for my trying any real golf, one has to be quite rich for that in this country.

 

[olbriar]

Golf is not a cheap sport to play in the US either. Besides the expense of clubs and bag (you are required to have your own equipment), you need proper apparel and golf shoes. Then the cost per round to play is not cheap and your tee time must be arranged days before your planned outing. To play on the super nice courses you have to join and pay for an annual membership. The nicest course around my area is the Flint Hills National. It is a private course and membership requires a $32,500 initiation fee and an annual membership fee of $9,240.

 

[mikedt]

Golf is not a cheap sport to play in the US either. Besides the expense of clubs and bag (you are required to have your own equipment), you need proper apparel and golf shoes. Then the cost per round to play is not cheap and your tee time must be arranged days before your planned outing. To play on the super nice courses you have to join and pay for an annual membership. The nicest course around my area is the Flint Hills National. It is a private course and membership requires a $32,500 initiation fee and an annual membership fee of $9,240.

Yeh, that sounds like it might cost to play golf in China. Maybe it's cheaper in Scotland?

What sports do you do, has often been a question of mine for students. When I asked about who plays basketball, nearly all hands went up. But when I asked about who plays golf in Inner Mongolia, all hands down. But when I asked about golf at my current school, a few hands went up. JInan Foreign Language School(my employer) is a fee paying school. where parents tend to be more affluent.

 

[campingfool]

Forgot a choice. "Does not give a damn.'

I used to golf, liked to walk the courses, but they become over run with idiots who preferred to ride carts, always pushing you on to go faster, making golf no longer fun anymore.

So PGA, LIV, whatever'; who cares?

Only thing I will say it is cute watching the PGA lifers crying like lost kids on TV on occasion.

 

[olbriar]

Yeh, that sounds like it might cost to play golf in China. Maybe it's cheaper in Scotland?

What sports do you do, has often been a question of mine for students. When I asked about who plays basketball, nearly all hands went up. But when I asked about who plays golf in Inner Mongolia, all hands down. But when I asked about golf at my current school, a few hands went up. JInan Foreign Language School(my employer) is a fee paying school. where parents tend to be more affluent.

I play and follow golf. I was removed from the sport for 50 years or so and just recently started playing again. There has been some changes to the game and LIV is causing quite a stir. The biggest and to me the most refreshing change in the game is the participation at a high level of players from the Asian sector. Back in the day it was primarily a British, Scottish, Irish, and US sport. Not only has the sport become more inclusive, the new to me participants in the sport are very good at the game and well received and respected by the golf community. I think it's great to see the expansion and inclusion.
I grabbed this from the net:
PGA Tour China is a China-based men's professional golf tour as part of the PGA Tour's global expansion. The tour started in 2014. After a hiatus in 2017, the tour resumed in 2018. It is known as PGA Tour Series China. An earlier tour, the Omega China Tour, ran from 2004 to 2009. Wikipedia
I've seen a number of foreign players gaining scholarships to play for prominent US colleges. They have their game at a high level and are reaping the benefits of their abilities. I think it's all a great thing for the sport and it's participants.

 

[mikedt]

I play and follow golf. I was removed from the sport for 50 years or so and just recently started playing again. There has been some changes to the game and LIV is causing quite a stir. The biggest and to me the most refreshing change in the game is the participation at a high level of players from the Asian sector. Back in the day it was primarily a British, Scottish, Irish, and US sport. Not only has the sport become more inclusive, the new to me participants in the sport are very good at the game and well received and respected by the golf community. I think it's great to see the expansion and inclusion.
I grabbed this from the net:
PGA Tour China is a China-based men's professional golf tour as part of the PGA Tour's global expansion. The tour started in 2014. After a hiatus in 2017, the tour resumed in 2018. It is known as PGA Tour Series China. An earlier tour, the Omega China Tour, ran from 2004 to 2009. Wikipedia
I've seen a number of foreign players gaining scholarships to play for prominent US colleges. They have their game at a high level and are reaping the benefits of their abilities. I think it's all a great thing for the sport and it's participants.

I was reading about PGA Tour China, and that venture might be as successful as NFL China, or MLB China. Which is not very. Basically it will cost them millions of $$$, and won't attract much attention.

I have seen some of the golf courses in China, including one in Zhuhai, Guangdong Prrovince. That was right next to a large oil refinery. With some peeps putting on a green, next to massive towers burning off gas in huge flames.

 

[olbriar]

I would think that China could lend itself to some beautiful courses. Naturally it would take a lot of revenue to develop and to support. Without a huge following it would likely be far from profitable. Playing golf next to a refinery doesn't really sound like my idea of a course. Most courses I've played boast rolling topography with mature trees and natural waterways. Even though I'm not playing well, I always enjoy the serenity and beauty of the course.

 

[Deleted member 2157292]

I played (on occasions) 9 hole golf (or short 18 course) with 2 friends on 2 separate and different courses around Dublin.

You hired the clubs and I can't remember how the irons go but I think generally a nine iron (?) though you could try a driver.
The hill side country one was the best, very longish drives with grassy undulations and a steeper side.

The as large flatter one was part of a then new golf and tennis centre you didn't have to join.

(The tennis practice walls with a curved top were a very new idea then and good practice)

On the flat course on this one there was a high wire fence bordering a straight, fast dual carriageway road, but most of the "fairways" and greens were well inside.

I did tee off last on one hole with one of my better drives. I lost sight of it until a friend ahead said "uh... four ", pointed and I saw it bounce in front of a car on the outside lane. This was about 1984.
I should have followed it up professionally.

 

[olbriar]

I was playing golf with a friend many decades ago, in the late 60's, and he shot his ball into a metal trash can. (55 gallon drum that hung on a bracket so it could swivel to be emptied). The sound of that golf ball bouncing around in that empty barrel sounded like a mad percussionist on speed. It reverberated over half of the course.

 

[Dannydet]

So this got me thinking....
What would happen if the Saudis created their own leagues for football, baseball, hockey, basketball?
Can you imagine the turmoil that would make?
Just offer the players double or triple what they make now and see what becomes of it all.

 

[olbriar]

What is so enticing to the present PGA players to join the Saudi league is golfers have to qualify to participate in a money tournament and then do well in the tournament to be in the money and do really well to make the big bucks. The other sports you mention the players are on contract to play. They have to be among the elite to land such a contract and have to excel to maintain that contract. That is what the Saudi league is offering golfers. You are paid to play vs earning what you make. It's attractive and new to the sport. It somewhat takes away the incentive to be at the top of your game but does put it in line with other sports that are sold to the viewing audience. It will be very interesting to see if the Saudi's make a profit off of their adventure. And no matter how deep their pockets, profit is the name of any league's desire. It hinges on coverage and advertising. We shall see...

As for other sports... money talks. The athletes have a finite window to reap the revenue for their talents. If you throw enough money at the athletes to entice them to give up the hall of fames and the stats that are kept for a given sport, I think that you could draw another sport away from tradition.

 

[Dannydet]

I see.
I did not know that the PGA was handled like that.
Well the ball has started to roll, let's sit back and watch what happens