Vaccines and COVID anxiety

[mikedt]

Both the pro and anti-vax/mask movement are nuts! Neither side cares about safety, medicine, or science: It's degenerated into insane extremism and childish us-and-themism. They're worse than the phone snobs, who would put you down if you had an Android instead of an iPhone (or vice versa).

Is that still a current issue in the US?

BTW I know something worse than phone snobs, and that's audiophiles.

 

[Windroid]

Is that still a current issue in the US?

I don't know, but the crazies in my country are always hysterical about something. Yes, all countries have crazies, but my own country gives the crazies way too much power to shape the culture!

 

[ozonetrooper]

Home Depot has taken down the plexiglass cubes they encased the checkouts with, young folks never have a mask on in kroger anymore, restaurants are full again.

Lots of intell now being exposed on the hazards of having got a shot, heat attack seems to head the list.

do an internet search on horror stories of those who did not die from the "shot" but are so fu**ed up from it they wish they were dead. (start with Eric Clapton)

NO, I never got one and NO, I have never gotten sick !

YMMV

 

[ozonetrooper]

ted

ted

deletedvids.com

 

[mikedt]

I got COVID in December, tested positive. but was over it in 5 days. All restrictions have been removed here, except for masks must still be worn on public transport, i.e. buses and subway.

But my health was more threatened by the myocardial infarction I had in 2022.

 

[Rxpert83]

LOL come back to see how the forums are doing and we're still spouting conspiracy nonsense eh?

 

[Windroid]

LOL come back to see how the forums are doing and we're still spouting conspiracy nonsense eh?

Speaking for myself here: I wish my country, the United States, would take the risk of germs and contagious disease more seriously. I'd like to see all doors have foot-handles. I'd like to see sinks (for washing hands) at the entrances and exits of public buildings. I'd like heat-sensors at the entrances of public transportation and schools, so that people with favors won't be allowed to enter and get other people sick.

So, I'm not some "Covid is just the flu" guy. I don't even think the flu is "just the flu". Yet even I found my country's reaction to Covid hysterical (as in hysteria, not as in ha-ha)! In my opinion: My country both grossly overreacted and grossly underreacted to the threat of Covid.

 

[treb1797]

LOL come back to see how the forums are doing and we're still spouting conspiracy nonsense eh?

A lot of uneducated people out there, I mean just get on Twitter. I didn't really understand how stupid people were in this world until I got on there

 

[ocnbrze]

LOL come back to see how the forums are doing and we're still spouting conspiracy nonsense eh?

Rx!!!!!!!!!!! i'm glad you popped in. i hope things are going well for you.

yep some guys here love conspiracies.

 

[mikedt]

A lot of uneducated people out there, I mean just get on Twitter. I didn't really understand how stupid people were in this world until I got on there

Well stay away from Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Fakebook, etc. As they're just full of stupid things from stupid people. That's what I do.

 

[mikedt]

Speaking for myself here: I wish my country, the United States, would take the risk of germs and contagious disease more seriously. I'd like to see all doors have foot-handles. I'd like to see sinks (for washing hands) at the entrances and exits of public buildings.

Sinks with running water maybe impractical to install at entrances to some places. However where I am hand sanitizer is often provided, usually a couple of bottles on a table at the entrances to malls, public buildings, subways, railway stations, etc., for anyone who wishes to sterilise. But you could always put on some sterile gloves when going out, to try to avoid any risks of touching contaminations, etc. Shango066 on YouTube, he's nearly always wearing rubber gloves when handling and repairing old TVs and radios, because of some of the nasties these things can harbour, like nicotine glaze, etc.

I'd like heat-sensors at the entrances of public transportation and schools, so that people with favors won't be allowed to enter and get other people sick.

That is something that is often installed at many places here. And in fact some heat-sensor systems have been installed for many years now, especially at schools, colleges, and universities. Because of the SARS epidemic of 2008.

 

[Windroid]

But you could always put on some sterile gloves when going out, to try to avoid any risks of touching contaminations, etc.

That too, gloves should be considered part of normal hygiene.

 

[Hadron]

That too, gloves should be considered part of normal hygiene.

Re-usable fabric ones, I hope? We don't want another source of plastic pollution.

But then how are people going to use their phone screens?

 

[Windroid]

Re-usable fabric ones, I hope? We don't want another source of plastic pollution.

No, disposable plastic gloves. That way I can throw away my dirty gloves and put on new ones when I'm out. Polution of the body with germs is a far more serious issue than plastic pollution!

 

[Hadron]

That's a very selfish position. I'd say the opposite: polluting the environment with plastics is a much bigger problem than reducing the exposure of an individual organism to some germs when your immune system will handle almost all of them just fine.

If you are severely immune compromised that's one thing. If you are working with people or materials that need to be protected from contamination, or working with dangerous pathogens, then while you are doing that job, absolutely. If however you propose mass adoption of disposable plastic gloves in everyday life then no, that would be a major pollution problem and utterly unjustifiable.

 

[Windroid]

That's a very selfish position. I'd say the opposite: polluting the environment with plastics is a much bigger problem than reducing the exposure of an individual organism to some germs when your immune system will handle almost all of them just fine.

How much does plastic polution harm you, or any random person you can point to? Compare that to the harm germs do. I'd feel better putting more plastic into the trash, then getting everyone around me sick!

 

[mikedt]

I suggest @Windroid wears gloves made from natural latex rubber rather than plastics, That's not going to increase plastic pollutions, and should protect from germs.

 

[ozonetrooper]

I vehemently dislike having to touch the inside of a public bathroom door to open it to get out after washing my hands and using an air blower dryer.

Remember the old cloth loop hand dryer dispensers ?

Forgiiiiit about it ! ! ! !

Oh and fwiw, never took a shot and never had the vid either .... I worked, (retired at the beginning of this year) in the apartment complex industry, went in occupied/vacant appartments daily and was very afraid of getting sick, but not afraid enough to risk what the shot gave to those that got it ...

 

[Windroid]

I suggest @Windroid wears gloves made from natural latex rubber rather than plastics, That's not going to increase plastic pollutions, and should protect from germs.

I'm just going to trust my city's trash system to handle plastics properly. Besides, my doctor's office outright bans gloves because they fear people having a bad allergic reaction to latex! So if I were to wear latex gloves, I might be causing pollution by leaving allergens on whatever I touch.

 

[Hadron]

How much does plastic polution harm you, or any random person you can point to? Compare that to the harm germs do. I'd feel better putting more plastic into the trash, then getting everyone around me sick!

It's not just about you, or me. That's why this planet is in such a mess, people prioritising their comfort, convenience or financial gains over the consequences.

It harms ecosystems, and if all you care about is yourself then in the end that will come back to you, and the rest of our species (sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, I'm really addressing it to our societies in general). There are already plastic fragments in our bodies from the food chain, along with many other of our pollutants, we don't actually know all of the consequences. And let's face it, the overwhelming majority of germs you come in contact with do you no harm, and at least we have evolved defenses against those things.

There are circumstances in which enhanced bioprotective measures make sense (though the most recent one was passed by aerosols and transmission through contact with surfaces turned out to be a very minor factor - though of course people wouldn't know that initially). I had no more time for the "anti mask" fools than the anti vax ones. But to suggest that everyone everywhere at all times should wear disposable gloves in public is not a rational reaction to everyday microbial threats.

I'm just going to trust my city's trash system to handle plastics properly.

Why would you do that? Have you ever checked what they actually do with it (which isn't always what they say - there are major problems in many countries from materials that are supposed to be being recycled ending up being dumped, and I would be amazed if the USA is somehow immune from the financial incentives to cut corners). And the best recycling is still far inferior to reducing usage. So absolutely use the right bin, but don't assume that makes everything OK, and the best thing is always to reduce waste in the first place.

 

[Windroid]

if all you care about is yourself

You're missing the point: This isn't just about myself. If I get sick, I can then make other people sick.

There are already plastic fragments in our bodies from the food chain, along with many other of our pollutants, we don't actually know all of the consequences.

Perhaps so. But the same can be said for Covid: The more we find out about it, the scarier it becomes. We don't know all the long-term consequences of Covid, and that's just one disease! Who knows how many other contagious diseases out there have nasty long-term consequences.

the overwhelming majority of germs you come in contact with do you no harm

Of course, but it's the ones that do harm I'm concerned with.

Why would you [trust your city's trash system to handle plastics properly]? Have you ever checked what they actually do with it

If I don't trust my city's trash system to handle trash properly, then the real problem here isn't plastic. It's everything! So, unless I start incinerating my trash myself (which itself might not be too good for the environment) to prevent the trash system from getting ahold of it, there's not much I can do.

the best thing is always to reduce waste in the first place.

Agreed, but I don't consider it wasteful to keep the people around me from getting sick.

 

[Hadron]

It's a matter of balance. If you want to avoid making people around you sick the best way is to avoid exposing them when you are ill. People going in to work when ill is the classic example of that - and the circumstances that force some people to feel that they need to do that are problems in both the workplace and the society. But constantly generating pollution on the off chance that you might have something that is asymptomatic but might infect and affect someone else is a lack of proportion (it's different in a medical environment, with vulnerable people and likely more pathogens in the environment, as the balance of risk and harm differs). And you were advocating this as something that should be done generally, not just as a personal thing, which is what would make it problematic. Weighing one type of benefit against a different type of harm is tricky, but I'm afraid that I feel (very strongly, as you can probably tell) that you are are attaching too much weight to one and too little to the other.

As for trusting your city's waste disposal system, I'm saying that trust should not be blind - and neither should mistrust be automatic (which is another source of problems). If there are problems the solution would not be to incinerate stuff yourself (which you don't have the capability of doing properly), but to get those problems fixed (which one individual cannot do, but collective action can). But the big point is that no matter how good their systems are they are still much worse than not generating the pollution in the first place, and hence even if their systems are world class that doesn't remove the need to reduce rather than increase the waste we generate.

 

[Windroid]

It's a matter of balance.

Agreed.

If you want to avoid making people around you sick the best way is to avoid exposing them when you are ill.

Agreed, with a caveat:

People going in to work when ill is the classic example of that - and the circumstances that force some people to feel that they need to do that are problems in both the workplace and the society.

That's a problem, but there's a worse problem: You're often the most contagious well before you have symptoms! The best way to avoid exposing others when you're contagious, is to avoid getting infected in the first place.

But constantly generating pollution on the off chance that you might have something that is asymptomatic but might infect and affect someone else is a lack of proportion

We're all constantly generating pollution! Pollution from our cars, pollution from our bodies (germ pollution, noise pollution, etc.), pollution from the power plants that feed power to our homes, etc. So, not constantly generating pollution isn't a viable option. What we can do is take reasonable practical measures to minimize the amount of pollution we generate. For example, we can learn to use our inside voice to avoid generating noise pollution (way too many people haven't learned to use their inside voice!).

I feel (very strongly, as you can probably tell) that you are are attaching too much weight to one and too little to the other.

I feel the same about you. What you're advocating, to me, seems akin to not washing your hands after leaving the bathroom to save water.

 

[Hadron]

I feel the same about you. What you're advocating, to me, seems akin to not washing your hands after leaving the bathroom to save water.

Not at all. There's a world of difference between washing your hands when they may be contaminated and routinely wearing and disposing of plastic gloves, despite also washing your hands (which I took for granted). Water needs treatment after use, but water itself is not a long-lived environmental pollutant.

But genuine question, where would you stop? If you walk around wearing gloves they will become contaminated (one reason why medics don't wear them when walking around or sitting at a desk but put a pair on when they will be touching a patient), so how often would you change them? Would you say people should wear them when socialising with friends? Who do you decide not to protect?

Really don't get me wrong: I get where you are coming from, I just don't think the benefits outweigh the costs. And I would have some concern that a culture in which wearing of PPE in public was the norm might risk increasing the numbers of people who have phobias about germs or dirt, or exacerbating OCD in some sufferers. So in an acute situation, absolutely, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with that as a societal norm otherwise.

 

[Windroid]

If you walk around wearing gloves they will become contaminated

The same goes for hands, that's why we wash our hands. Plastic/latex gloves (but not fabric) can be washed while worn, same as hands can be. But with gloves, you also have the option of replacing them. Useful for when a sink's not around!

And I would have some concern that a culture in which wearing of PPE in public was the norm might risk increasing the numbers of people who have phobias about germs or dirt, or exacerbating OCD in some sufferers

Considering that Covid, a genuine health hazard, inspired phobias and crazy overreactions: You have a point! But we shouldn't refrain from good hygiene habits for fear of the crazies. If we do that, we become like the crazy anti-maskers/vaxers who throw sensible health habits away along with the insane stuff. In the process, they become insane too. As I said: Both sides are nuts!